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welcome to tales from the rabbit hole

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I'm your host Mick West my guest today

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is Brad the electronics engineer and

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expert in mathematics Brad likes to keep

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an open mind about any new idea or new

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claim that he encounters let's let him

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to give a bit more credence than most

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people would do to the Flat Earth

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conspiracy theory but his math

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background allowed him very quickly to

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figure out that it was false we talked

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about how a strong grounding in math and

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science can help people get out of the

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rabbit hole as quickly as possible

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yeah we're glad to have you here you're

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another person on the podcast who I met

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the meta Bank where you posted on better

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Bank and you you posted a few very

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interesting posts about your your

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history with various kind of conspiracy

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theories like Flat Earth tell us a bit

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about before you got into that one thing

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you mentioned was that you watched the

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movie zeitgeist yeah way back when I was

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a teenager I think I watched that and

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had a lot of information about

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corruption and how 9/11 was an inside

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job and I kind of didn't have a lot of

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meaning in my life so that will be kind

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of just gave me meaning I don't really

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remember what the meaning was anymore

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but it gave me some sort of a kind of

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purpose or goal and like I guess you

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know how old you have been like like 15

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or 16 something like that yeah something

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like that yes yeah sorry it's an

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interesting movie zeitgeist so it's a

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blend of 9/11 conspiracy theories and

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the monetary stuff and then there's a

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bunch of strange religious stuff as well

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we religious at the time when you when

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you saw that I mean I went to church I

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wasn't religious as I remember I was a

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kid when I went to church I didn't

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really get anything other but I didn't

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even know what the numbers on the

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walnuts I realized later those Rivia

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the pages are the verses that I think a

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lot of people who you know people have

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religious backgrounds like that and then

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they get into other things in a way kind

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of replacing their religion like I know

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when I was in my late teens I was kind

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of searching for meaning and I was like

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going to associate books stores and

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things like that

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thinking oh maybe I'll become a Sun

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worshipper or something just just

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because it would be kind of a fun thing

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to do not because I believe that the Sun

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was a God or anything but it's just

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consider something attractive I think

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about believing in something I kind of

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didn't have any really meaning at all I

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just kind of went to church I was like

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what am I gonna do I'm just gonna have

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to go to church get married as a family

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mmm

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works some more and raise a kid than die

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well yeah yeah but I needed something

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else so you know you watch like guys as

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a teenager and that kind of like he

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didn't really get into it though

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no I just kind of smoked me on a

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subconscious level I guess I don't

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remember any of the details really I'm

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like I was thinking I'm like watch it

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before we did this podcast but I

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couldn't find the time so after after

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zeitgeist what would be the liking your

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first brush with this kind of like

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esoteric beliefs like this like Flat

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Earth and things like that well I say

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what

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like I said opened my mind to different

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ways of thinking and then obviously I

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went to university I studied for an

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electrical engineering degree and I

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guess when I guess you probably had the

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experience to of like being an

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undergraduate and then your mind just

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opens to this whole world of

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possibilities in a good way

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yeah in Manchester I went college and

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studied computer science computation

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they called it back then and yeah it was

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you know it's a completely different

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world when you go to college like I grew

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up I grew up in a smallish town and all

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of a sudden a big city surrounded by

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loads of people and lots of clever

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people so it's it can be quite

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mind-altering going to college oh yeah

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for sure it's hard to explain that's a

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flat earth tell us about your first

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experience with black data well the

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first experience with that was I just

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kind of met the guy online who was

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extremely confident and then I tried to

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like those like I got to talk mud at

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this you know I just oh and I searched

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just to find someone who was the

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fighters believer just to kind of talk

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them out of it and I couldn't and

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actually they won we had like a little

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one-on-one debate he actually sort of

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won the debate and I thought that can't

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happen

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if the earth was round likes surely all

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people are open to the facts and yeah so

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he you won the debate with this guy and

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debating with you yeah yeah so did you

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think he didn't stops to try to figure

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out what went wrong in the debate yeah I

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was wondering like how was I like I knew

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because I thought I knew the earth was

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round that seemed pictures from space

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and the abused GPS and seeing the moon I

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mean I watched Apollo 17 or got was

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really interesting they have like this

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whole chronological exposition of the

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entire all 17 mission so I mean like

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that can all be wrong so I was thinking

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like okay how was this guy more

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confident than me right that test was

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yeah do you remember the arguments that

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he is for the time uh yeah it was

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something like he showed me that the the

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first photo from space or something

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where you can't really see the kerbin

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horizon because it wasn't taken from

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very high and then yeah he said that's

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the last photo they took from space

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everything after that it's just

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Hollywood CGI and it's like well how do

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you counter that I suppose like if you

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simply claim that everything is faked

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and it's kind of a hard thing to

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disprove that it isn't so how did you

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set about like trying to convince

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yourself that the earth wasn't flat yeah

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well I had to I had to do some sort of

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experiment like I had to do something

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that the Greeks did something like that

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like the Eratosthenes but that's a bit

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of a pain because you got to find two

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different latitudes you gotta really use

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a lot of information or a large distance

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that they measured that was out of the

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question so again and I think you know

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the simple experiment was like first as

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a ball actually maybe although here we

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go yet all right so you've got a big

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spreadsheet with is this a spreadsheet

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you made yeah this is basically just the

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same thing as your curve calculator but

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I had to do it myself just to make sure

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that's real mistakes because you have a

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you have a math background so you would

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you would understand all of the the

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equations needed for figuring out the I

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think that's one of the big problems

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with with Flat Earth people is a lot of

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them don't have a very good math

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background and so trying to explain

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things to them you kind of yeah it's an

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insurmountable hurdle in some ways

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because you don't actually explain math

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to people who don't understand math yeah

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I remember being in grade 12 and asked

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me teach like what is sine of X I mean I

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know it is now it's just like brain you

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just calculate the ratio of the opposite

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over the hypotenuse but

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then it was very difficult for me to

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understand - and I sports it took a

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while - yeah I think it's good to kind

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of think back to when you didn't

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understand things there's lots of things

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with computer programming ie I did not

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understand like I remember once somebody

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asked me when I was like 15 or so what's

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the hardest thing in programming that

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you know of and at that time I said

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arrays which is one of the simplest

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things possible in programming when

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you're an actual programmer is this is

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trivial thing in in programming but back

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then it seemed like is bizarre strange

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way of doing variables where you have

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lots of different instances at the same

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variable what does this all mean yeah

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it's fascinating to like you should

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remember when you didn't understand

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anything and I think it's really useful

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if you try to apply that to other people

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as well they don't they've got no idea

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things that you think are really simple

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they just don't know anyway back to you

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were you a dick you do some math you do

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your spreadsheet and you got a curve

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calculator where you can figure out how

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much of things should be hidden in the

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distance and then did you go and

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actually do some observations yeah I was

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very lucky that I had like a stretch of

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island that I do a lot of videos around

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the weebles channel so throw that name

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up through now but yet that's just all

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the observations is basically all I did

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is just there's a stretch of ocean

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that's like sixteen six kilometers to

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back to Island from the beach and then

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there's this big bluff right next to it

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they can just climb up so that's perfect

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for yeah that sounds ideal

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yeah if earth were flat then you would

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see the island from the beach so it's

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the perfect opportunity to contradict

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the globe model and as well as drive

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down the road I was like I really hope I

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see that Island right I really hope I

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don't I don't see that Island from the

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beach because if I if I see that from

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the beach that's gonna be hell you would

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just like debunking that you are

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actually investigating for yourself

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you're trying to figure out yourself

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whether there might be something to this

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plot sort of thing yeah just I didn't

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know what the earth was at that point I

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had a moment of looking around us like

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maybe the earth this planet I mean it

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looks flat I don't give you emotional I

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don't see her future yeah it does

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that and I think that's what gets a lot

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of people and way I say a lot of people

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I don't know really that many people who

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believe in the Flat Earth it's one of

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the the least well believed conspiracy

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theories out there if you look at the

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the surveys they do it's always right at

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the bottom down there with

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shape-shifting aliens in fact

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shape-shifting aliens actually get quite

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a bit more belief depending on which

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version you ask but yeah a lot of people

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they get into it because they it looks

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flat because it's a big it's you know

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you look out especially over the ocean

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in this huge flat looking thing with

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described by descent in the rabbit holes

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like it's kind of like it was like a

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slip and slide down the rabbit hole was

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a trampoline waiting for me at the

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bottom which was my background

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mathematics will just bounce me right

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back up

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let's go ahead putting it so you had a

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not a parachute but you say a trampoline

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at the bottom because it's almost like I

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don't know like you got some kind of

273
00:09:55,250 --> 00:09:53,760
antimatter or something that when it

274
00:09:56,780 --> 00:09:55,260
touches this stuff which is completely

275
00:10:00,380 --> 00:09:56,790
impossible you know how to figure stuff

276
00:10:02,930 --> 00:10:00,390
out and because you do he would just be

277
00:10:04,190 --> 00:10:02,940
repelled from it because you you you

278
00:10:06,230 --> 00:10:04,200
know that it's false because you can do

279
00:10:09,470 --> 00:10:06,240
the math whereas a lot of people cannot

280
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:09,480
do the math and so they stay stuck down

281
00:10:12,769 --> 00:10:11,130
the rabbit hole and they were not

282
00:10:15,260 --> 00:10:12,779
fortunate to have a trampoline waiting

283
00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:15,270
for them so did you did you take this

284
00:10:20,180 --> 00:10:16,649
knowledge and kind of go back and try

285
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:20,190
and convince people I tried to yeah like

286
00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:22,170
I kind of participated on the like in

287
00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:24,630
the YouTube Flat Earth community and I

288
00:10:28,460 --> 00:10:26,880
think when I enter the chatroom is kind

289
00:10:30,110 --> 00:10:28,470
of they get a kick out of New York it's

290
00:10:32,210 --> 00:10:30,120
like my name's like Wiggles it's a silly

291
00:10:35,180 --> 00:10:32,220
name and they all kind of think I'm kind

292
00:10:37,250 --> 00:10:35,190
of stupid and dumb which kind of makes

293
00:10:40,639 --> 00:10:37,260
them less afraid of me which I think

294
00:10:42,980 --> 00:10:40,649
it's a good tactic it's good but then

295
00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:42,990
you roll out this these mathematical

296
00:10:47,870 --> 00:10:44,850
explanations how do they react to those

297
00:10:49,850 --> 00:10:47,880
well they the one that sticks up my mind

298
00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:49,860
is they just say like math and equations

299
00:10:52,850 --> 00:10:51,570
are just numbers on a page which don't

300
00:10:55,790 --> 00:10:52,860
prove anything you got to go and

301
00:10:57,319 --> 00:10:55,800
actually prove it what I mean if I'm

302
00:10:58,400 --> 00:10:57,329
going to communicate results I'm not

303
00:11:00,440 --> 00:10:58,410
going to use English I'm gonna use

304
00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:00,450
mathematics because mathematics is the

305
00:11:05,090 --> 00:11:02,160
better language here I think something

306
00:11:06,550 --> 00:11:05,100
that they mean there is that they want

307
00:11:08,319 --> 00:11:06,560
you to actually go and

308
00:11:10,689 --> 00:11:08,329
measure the distance with like a tape

309
00:11:13,749 --> 00:11:10,699
measure from the beach to the island

310
00:11:15,790 --> 00:11:13,759
which is it's kind of they demand these

311
00:11:17,319 --> 00:11:15,800
direct measurements when you're doing

312
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:17,329
the essentially direct measurements by

313
00:11:22,660 --> 00:11:20,930
doing line of sight but it's it's you

314
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:22,670
can't actually do the measurements that

315
00:11:26,079 --> 00:11:24,290
they require so it's like a get out of

316
00:11:28,090 --> 00:11:26,089
jail free card for that thing they say

317
00:11:29,499 --> 00:11:28,100
well unless you actually measure the

318
00:11:30,999 --> 00:11:29,509
distance to the island how far how do

319
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:31,009
you know how far away it is and if you

320
00:11:34,540 --> 00:11:33,170
not actually check the line of sight to

321
00:11:37,090 --> 00:11:34,550
see if it's straight how do you hear it

322
00:11:38,410 --> 00:11:37,100
straight yeah I think they are kind of a

323
00:11:39,999 --> 00:11:38,420
little bit past that now because I'm

324
00:11:41,829 --> 00:11:40,009
trying to do the observations in a way

325
00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:41,839
that like when I'm showing the videos

326
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:43,279
are recorded I'm trying to do it in a

327
00:11:47,019 --> 00:11:44,930
way that like theirs feels to their

328
00:11:48,970 --> 00:11:47,029
senses I'm just like that thing is far

329
00:11:50,499 --> 00:11:48,980
away here's the beach here's my feet

330
00:11:51,850 --> 00:11:50,509
next to the water there's a hell up

331
00:11:54,009 --> 00:11:51,860
there I'm going to go up there so I I

332
00:11:55,150 --> 00:11:54,019
don't I don't even really need to do any

333
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:55,160
measurements but again I had to convince

334
00:11:59,799 --> 00:11:57,680
myself that the earth was not flat which

335
00:12:01,269 --> 00:11:59,809
is not hard to do it all relates and

336
00:12:02,530 --> 00:12:01,279
then but then I got to do the

337
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:02,540
measurements in such a way that they

338
00:12:07,660 --> 00:12:06,410
will leave my senses so so I think

339
00:12:09,850 --> 00:12:07,670
they're kind of passed the point that

340
00:12:13,150 --> 00:12:09,860
like cuz he can move like that guy ranty

341
00:12:15,129 --> 00:12:13,160
yeah he's a flat earther and he he

342
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:15,139
actually made a video but one of my

343
00:12:19,420 --> 00:12:17,120
videos but basically he agreed with me

344
00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:19,430
that when I went I up like would CD disc

345
00:12:22,809 --> 00:12:21,110
now and when I went low down I couldn't

346
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:22,819
see the distant island so I mean he

347
00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:25,490
agrees like that but he still thinks you

348
00:12:29,490 --> 00:12:26,689
have this plus anything there's some

349
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:29,500
kind of reason why this happens which

350
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:32,050
it's it's actually quite hard to

351
00:12:35,980 --> 00:12:34,490
understand what's going on in their head

352
00:12:38,079 --> 00:12:35,990
when they think these things are

353
00:12:41,799 --> 00:12:38,089
explainable they see a distant island

354
00:12:43,780 --> 00:12:41,809
half of it is below the horizon and they

355
00:12:45,819 --> 00:12:43,790
think that somehow is consistent with

356
00:12:47,590 --> 00:12:45,829
with a flat earth how do you explain

357
00:12:49,809 --> 00:12:47,600
that to people how do you get through to

358
00:12:51,610 --> 00:12:49,819
them well I think I'm more empathetic

359
00:12:53,919 --> 00:12:51,620
because I was a flat earther for one day

360
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:53,929
the on the drive down to the beach house

361
00:13:00,129 --> 00:12:55,730
a flat or if they're on the drive back I

362
00:13:01,569 --> 00:13:00,139
was back in reality the way I to be

363
00:13:03,519 --> 00:13:01,579
empathetic with them this like I think

364
00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:03,529
they had it's like actually I was

365
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:05,990
recovering from a flu a last couple days

366
00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:07,970
and I'm thinking like well when you get

367
00:13:15,309 --> 00:13:12,110
sick your body kind of like your immune

368
00:13:17,860 --> 00:13:15,319
system revs up and if your disease has

369
00:13:19,630 --> 00:13:17,870
to pass so it's the same thing with this

370
00:13:20,980 --> 00:13:19,640
kind of fighters we phone the state

371
00:13:22,660 --> 00:13:20,990
stab in the dark here well it's like

372
00:13:23,770 --> 00:13:22,670
their fighters believe it has to pass in

373
00:13:25,810 --> 00:13:23,780
a certain way they have certain

374
00:13:26,830 --> 00:13:25,820
questions they need answers to and if

375
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:26,840
they don't get questions to those

376
00:13:30,370 --> 00:13:28,730
answers you're not gonna erode their

377
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:30,380
fighters beliefs maybe it does that

378
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:32,240
makes sense yeah no it's kind of like

379
00:13:37,180 --> 00:13:34,850
they've got to actually you've got to

380
00:13:39,190 --> 00:13:37,190
actually get past certain things there's

381
00:13:40,690 --> 00:13:39,200
a set of things that you wouldn't be

382
00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:40,700
able to persuade them with one thing

383
00:13:44,890 --> 00:13:41,870
because they always had these other

384
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:44,900
questions like if you if you explained

385
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:47,090
that the horizon obscures it obscures

386
00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:49,370
mountains then they were last but water

387
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:52,070
always finds its own level so it should

388
00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:55,010
be flat and then you know an explanation

389
00:13:58,720 --> 00:13:57,170
for that and then they'll have some

390
00:14:00,910 --> 00:13:58,730
other thing yeah I don't know what the

391
00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:00,920
standard flutter things that go to

392
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:02,480
things are there's no real pictures from

393
00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:05,600
space don't make that claim yeah based

394
00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:07,310
on nothing other than other flutter of

395
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:08,510
people telling them there's no real

396
00:14:11,290 --> 00:14:09,530
picture from space

397
00:14:14,650 --> 00:14:11,300
I think now in the community right now

398
00:14:16,990 --> 00:14:14,660
July 26 2019 I think the atmosphere

399
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:17,000
acting like a mirror like that post I

400
00:14:19,930 --> 00:14:18,530
made on medical cuz I just put that

401
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:19,940
there just because that's what a lot of

402
00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:21,850
them seem to be using as a rebuttal to

403
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:24,910
the globe now it seems to be the one

404
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:29,810
contradictory claim I guess yeah

405
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:32,510
it's I think a lot of what happens is

406
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:34,370
they kind of they reach for something

407
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:35,930
that will explain one little thing and

408
00:14:40,030 --> 00:14:37,610
then they try to shoehorn that into

409
00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:40,040
explaining everything sometimes you can

410
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:42,470
see a reflection of something in the

411
00:14:46,330 --> 00:14:44,810
distance because they're like these heat

412
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:46,340
reflections that you see in a hot road

413
00:14:50,140 --> 00:14:48,320
you see nose over the ocean sometimes

414
00:14:52,390 --> 00:14:50,150
and so they think oh that must be what's

415
00:14:53,890 --> 00:14:52,400
causing everything and then they say

416
00:14:55,570 --> 00:14:53,900
well the atmosphere is acting like a

417
00:14:57,220 --> 00:14:55,580
mirror and then they say well that

418
00:14:58,960 --> 00:14:57,230
explains everything but of course it

419
00:15:00,940 --> 00:14:58,970
doesn't it just explains one tiny little

420
00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:00,950
thing in one particular location they

421
00:15:05,890 --> 00:15:03,950
won't particular situation and if you in

422
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:05,900
spand it out to other things like you

423
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:07,730
know why is it making ten thousand feet

424
00:15:11,650 --> 00:15:09,890
of this mountain disappear it just

425
00:15:13,090 --> 00:15:11,660
doesn't work I mean they we gotta give

426
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:13,100
them an A for effort but you gotta give

427
00:15:21,790 --> 00:15:16,730
them an F for failure yeah they

428
00:15:26,350 --> 00:15:21,800
certainly do so yeah you you posted that

429
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:26,360
you were kind of vulnerable to these

430
00:15:29,470 --> 00:15:27,770
types of ideas you want to talk about

431
00:15:30,190 --> 00:15:29,480
that like what your kind of state of

432
00:15:33,310 --> 00:15:30,200
mind was

433
00:15:36,910 --> 00:15:33,320
and you know how it made you more open

434
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:36,920
to these types of things yeah I don't

435
00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:38,720
even really understand myself to be

436
00:15:42,340 --> 00:15:40,310
honest I just know that I'm open to

437
00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:42,350
ideas if I hear an idea that makes any

438
00:15:46,380 --> 00:15:45,110
sort of sense like if it like I have my

439
00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:46,390
like beliefs

440
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:48,710
everyone has their beliefs that get them

441
00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:51,290
through the day and then because he

442
00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:52,670
needs certain beliefs to repel

443
00:15:57,550 --> 00:15:55,190
information but I try to get this rid of

444
00:15:59,380 --> 00:15:57,560
many of my beliefs or actions as I can

445
00:16:01,930 --> 00:15:59,390
the only ones I really hold around or

446
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:01,940
get sorello Fraenkel set theory axioms

447
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:04,850
was like first five of those I'm really

448
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:06,800
intimately familiar with and the rest of

449
00:16:09,730 --> 00:16:08,240
them do not really there's no one

450
00:16:14,820 --> 00:16:09,740
decrees on a number no one even knows

451
00:16:18,060 --> 00:16:14,830
what they are what does it it's like I

452
00:16:21,490 --> 00:16:18,070
know it's just like in the nineteen

453
00:16:23,650 --> 00:16:21,500
hundreds that was a big time for

454
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:23,660
mathematics because the analysts order

455
00:16:28,090 --> 00:16:26,690
rely like like math was falling apart

456
00:16:32,950 --> 00:16:28,100
right the foundations of mathematics

457
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:32,960
were in tatters like there was just they

458
00:16:38,770 --> 00:16:35,110
needed some rigorous axiomatization of

459
00:16:40,870 --> 00:16:38,780
mathematics or they had nothing so they

460
00:16:42,610 --> 00:16:40,880
struggled and they struggled and because

461
00:16:44,830 --> 00:16:42,620
like Cantor came up with like there are

462
00:16:46,570 --> 00:16:44,840
multiple sizes of infinity and like

463
00:16:47,710 --> 00:16:46,580
people like God oh my cancer and well

464
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:47,720
that's not true there's only one

465
00:16:54,070 --> 00:16:50,650
infinity but there's an infinite

466
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:54,080
cardinalities of infinities which I mean

467
00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:56,000
what I mean like number one is bigger

468
00:17:00,520 --> 00:16:58,250
than two right like one is are one thing

469
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:00,530
this is two things but then if you have

470
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:02,810
infinite lists of things there's also we

471
00:17:07,449 --> 00:17:05,930
can count like Aleph not a loved one L

472
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:07,459
of two out of three those are your

473
00:17:16,060 --> 00:17:13,120
increasing curve Nelly's yeah infinity

474
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:16,070
yeah it's really hard to convince this

475
00:17:22,689 --> 00:17:21,290
in a way that's that's my problem

476
00:17:26,290 --> 00:17:22,699
a condition made in the Flat Earth those

477
00:17:28,210 --> 00:17:26,300
like starting to ooze out yeah and to

478
00:17:30,250 --> 00:17:28,220
finally answer your question why am i

479
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:30,260
bowl to the fighters things I said I had

480
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:31,760
a few beliefs that get me through the

481
00:17:34,180 --> 00:17:32,000
day

482
00:17:36,370 --> 00:17:34,190
right I'm trying to minimize those

483
00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:36,380
because beliefs are bad but you need a

484
00:17:41,470 --> 00:17:39,680
few but but if something if a piece of

485
00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:41,480
information comes in that is not

486
00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:43,510
contradicted by my belief system

487
00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:46,270
by my system of theorems created by my

488
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:49,260
axioms which is to excuse logical terms

489
00:17:54,270 --> 00:17:51,850
if something is not contradicted by that

490
00:17:55,620 --> 00:17:54,280
well I have to either accept that as an

491
00:17:58,230 --> 00:17:55,630
axiom where I got to integrate that in

492
00:18:01,140 --> 00:17:58,240
some way and so if if any information

493
00:18:03,570 --> 00:18:01,150
out there doesn't contradict what I

494
00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:03,580
believe and I accept it until I can

495
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:06,990
disprove it hmm interesting

496
00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:09,970
so if I told you I was a robot with that

497
00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:16,510
contradict any beliefs I mean I've seen

498
00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:18,220
lots of evidence of you acting what your

499
00:18:24,210 --> 00:18:21,910
humans very good very good I'll be over

500
00:18:27,090 --> 00:18:24,220
over human perhaps yeah you passed the

501
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:27,100
Turing test well I took that question

502
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:30,370
seriously because that's not a lot of

503
00:18:34,650 --> 00:18:31,930
flat earthers they they have this very

504
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:34,660
fundamental philosophy in a way and that

505
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:36,310
they don't believe anything unless it's

506
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:39,930
been shown to be true to them personally

507
00:18:45,420 --> 00:18:43,600
and and you kind of you know in a way

508
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:45,430
like saying you don't disbelieve things

509
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:47,170
unless you you have some evidence that

510
00:18:52,260 --> 00:18:49,360
they're not true but I mean those things

511
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:52,270
that are pretty ridiculous like like the

512
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:54,610
idea that all the birds were killed in

513
00:19:00,920 --> 00:18:56,650
the 1950s and replaced by robot birds

514
00:19:03,420 --> 00:19:00,930
which is spying on us which is this joke

515
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:03,430
conspiracy theory that's out there now

516
00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:04,890
you wouldn't really need any

517
00:19:08,970 --> 00:19:06,910
investigation to dismiss that or would

518
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:08,980
you would you actually accept that it

519
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:11,710
might be true before you did a work well

520
00:19:15,390 --> 00:19:13,600
initially I I never heard that until now

521
00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:15,400
so I accept it for the moment and then I

522
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:18,310
try to see if I can contradict it using

523
00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:19,930
logic because I mean I got I did

524
00:19:26,090 --> 00:19:22,480
University logic I got a 98 in that and

525
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:26,100
that means I failed in my mind but yeah

526
00:19:29,820 --> 00:19:28,570
just a logistics of that don't make

527
00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:29,830
sense are you gonna kill every bird

528
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:31,180
right like some of them might be hiding

529
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:34,570
I can avoid yeah that's gonna happen

530
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:37,090
start breeding yeah there's obvious

531
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:37,810
problems with it

532
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:40,090
but yeah it's an interesting kind of way

533
00:19:43,650 --> 00:19:42,250
of thinking about it is that you accept

534
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:43,660
that things might be true straight away

535
00:19:47,970 --> 00:19:45,130
and then you then you try to find

536
00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:47,980
problems with it and you know I think

537
00:19:54,510 --> 00:19:52,150
are you kind of you kind of can work but

538
00:19:55,529 --> 00:19:54,520
I think the problem is if you are not

539
00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:55,539
very good at finding

540
00:19:59,909 --> 00:19:57,210
problems if you're not very analytical

541
00:20:01,259 --> 00:19:59,919
then you accept things that's true and

542
00:20:03,659 --> 00:20:01,269
then you're you're just simply not able

543
00:20:05,070 --> 00:20:03,669
to figure out why it's not true and then

544
00:20:06,659 --> 00:20:05,080
you just continue to accept that it's

545
00:20:08,969 --> 00:20:06,669
true like a flutter of thing people

546
00:20:11,129 --> 00:20:08,979
think well what if what if the earth is

547
00:20:15,090 --> 00:20:11,139
flat let me try to debunk it and then he

548
00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:15,100
can't yeah that's what a lot of them say

549
00:20:18,330 --> 00:20:16,809
and say like I tried like I had the

550
00:20:20,430 --> 00:20:18,340
various stages of being a flat earth or

551
00:20:21,930 --> 00:20:20,440
I mean like yeah so stage one is you

552
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:21,940
hear about platters and you think it's

553
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:24,159
stupid to it you doubt something your

554
00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:25,690
teachers your government NASA's hold you

555
00:20:28,710 --> 00:20:27,070
and wonder if the flat earthers around

556
00:20:31,919 --> 00:20:28,720
something three you actually research

557
00:20:32,969 --> 00:20:31,929
flatterers as so you watch some YouTube

558
00:20:35,909 --> 00:20:32,979
videos that are arrested to call

559
00:20:36,989 --> 00:20:35,919
research mm-hmm then you finish throwing

560
00:20:38,879 --> 00:20:36,999
out everything you were taught in school

561
00:20:41,129 --> 00:20:38,889
and you finally read and then Stage five

562
00:20:43,649 --> 00:20:41,139
is you realize the earth isn't always

563
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:43,659
well as flat so what that comes from was

564
00:20:49,109 --> 00:20:46,570
that was a failure for them to debunk it

565
00:20:51,029 --> 00:20:49,119
they just didn't have the tools needed

566
00:20:53,249 --> 00:20:51,039
to debunk the claim that earth is flat

567
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:53,259
so they stayed down in the rabbit hole I

568
00:20:56,820 --> 00:20:55,330
would have stayed there too I think most

569
00:20:58,849 --> 00:20:56,830
people that most people don't actually

570
00:21:01,379 --> 00:20:58,859
have the ability to debunk Flat Earth

571
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:01,389
but most people actually don't question

572
00:21:08,399 --> 00:21:04,690
their standard model either so you get

573
00:21:10,139 --> 00:21:08,409
usual I think if everybody suddenly had

574
00:21:13,409 --> 00:21:10,149
the mindset that we had to check

575
00:21:15,690 --> 00:21:13,419
everything for ourselves then you'd get

576
00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:15,700
millions of people believing all kinds

577
00:21:21,299 --> 00:21:18,159
of things just because they don't have

578
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:21,309
the ability to figure things out yeah so

579
00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:24,159
I kind of when I was a math tutor in the

580
00:21:30,289 --> 00:21:26,169
university math Center I made this kind

581
00:21:32,519 --> 00:21:30,299
of joke about we do a sanity test

582
00:21:34,259 --> 00:21:32,529
because like a sanity test is the

583
00:21:35,820 --> 00:21:34,269
logical fallacy but like you know if you

584
00:21:38,489 --> 00:21:35,830
have to make a statement if you have a

585
00:21:41,129 --> 00:21:38,499
universe like a programming you have a

586
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:41,139
arrange say and you have to verify that

587
00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:43,090
a statement is true for every element in

588
00:21:49,049 --> 00:21:45,609
the array then you have to test every

589
00:21:50,759 --> 00:21:49,059
single element in the array now sanity

590
00:21:52,919 --> 00:21:50,769
check means you just test the first

591
00:21:56,869 --> 00:21:52,929
couple maybe one in the middle hand and

592
00:22:00,810 --> 00:21:56,879
then if you asked say it's true for all

593
00:22:03,690 --> 00:22:00,820
it's a sanity test yeah I think this

594
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:03,700
leads to an interesting point there's a

595
00:22:06,810 --> 00:22:04,720
lot of people when they talk about

596
00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:06,820
debunking the critical thinking and

597
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:08,529
things like that they say that people

598
00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:09,370
need to be taught

599
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:11,470
have to do maths and how to understand

600
00:22:14,730 --> 00:22:12,970
science and this is something you said

601
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:14,740
yourself that people should you know

602
00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:18,010
learn things like Ohm's law which you

603
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:20,110
know it's great if that was possibility

604
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:22,750
I think realistically a lot of people

605
00:22:26,370 --> 00:22:25,090
are not going to be able to do that and

606
00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:26,380
they certainly from where they are now

607
00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:27,820
they're not going to be able to get to

608
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:30,640
an understanding of things like you know

609
00:22:34,410 --> 00:22:32,650
electrical resistance and even simple

610
00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:34,420
algebra and things like that and you

611
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:37,900
know so if so the question is like is

612
00:22:41,790 --> 00:22:39,360
the answer

613
00:22:43,620 --> 00:22:41,800
teaching people how to do critical

614
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:43,630
thinking and how to do math and how to

615
00:22:49,980 --> 00:22:46,710
do science or is it teaching them how to

616
00:22:52,169 --> 00:22:49,990
evaluate near the science that's out

617
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:52,179
there how to determine what what a

618
00:22:57,090 --> 00:22:55,330
reliable sources and what science is

619
00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:57,100
good science happy need how can you

620
00:23:00,090 --> 00:22:58,720
teach someone to determine what science

621
00:23:03,299 --> 00:23:00,100
is good science without actually

622
00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:03,309
teaching them science yeah I think I

623
00:23:06,660 --> 00:23:05,080
think they got to do both of it they got

624
00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:06,670
to learn how to do science themselves

625
00:23:10,140 --> 00:23:07,990
and they got to learn how to evaluate

626
00:23:12,419 --> 00:23:10,150
what's already out there that's just the

627
00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:12,429
way and we live in a sea of information

628
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:14,950
so and then you strategies for dealing

629
00:23:19,410 --> 00:23:17,290
with this mass these big data we live in

630
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:19,420
right now I think a problem though is

631
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:21,850
that most science isn't really useful

632
00:23:26,510 --> 00:23:24,970
for most people in their desires useless

633
00:23:28,890 --> 00:23:26,520
yes

634
00:23:32,549 --> 00:23:28,900
algebra yeah some people some jobs she

635
00:23:34,110 --> 00:23:32,559
is algebra yeah it's just if simple

636
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:34,120
things like construction that sometimes

637
00:23:36,750 --> 00:23:35,710
use simple algebraic things but

638
00:23:38,010 --> 00:23:36,760
sometimes people get to work in

639
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:38,020
construction and they're working things

640
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:39,970
out but they have these strange rules of

641
00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:41,650
thumb that they use but you know most

642
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:43,510
people they do their science at school

643
00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:45,370
they do biology and physics and

644
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:46,720
chemistry to a certain degree

645
00:23:53,070 --> 00:23:49,570
and then they forget most of it because

646
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:53,080
most of it isn't really relevant and you

647
00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:55,450
can it be great if everybody knew

648
00:24:01,140 --> 00:23:58,330
science to be able to evaluate things

649
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:01,150
but no they can't Richard Fineman had a

650
00:24:04,169 --> 00:24:02,770
quote on that he said like something

651
00:24:05,669 --> 00:24:04,179
about if you you got to get kids

652
00:24:07,169 --> 00:24:05,679
interested in science early because by

653
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:07,179
the time they get the university it is

654
00:24:13,470 --> 00:24:09,850
too late they have lost their curiosity

655
00:24:14,850 --> 00:24:13,480
yeah that's very true so then what do we

656
00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:14,860
do now like we've got all these people

657
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:17,590
who are you know they're older than

658
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:20,650
teenagers millions of them and they

659
00:24:26,580 --> 00:24:21,730
don't know

660
00:24:30,419 --> 00:24:26,590
very much math and they're having doubts

661
00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:30,429
about things like like 9/11 or flat

662
00:24:38,149 --> 00:24:35,049
earth or chemtrails we can't take some

663
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:38,159
time so I can't we yeah that's a tough

664
00:24:50,639 --> 00:24:48,010
question that myself I guess first the

665
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:50,649
gut reaction to that is like people

666
00:24:53,639 --> 00:24:52,210
gotta take a slice of humble pie they

667
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:53,649
gotta admit these kids there's kids out

668
00:24:58,529 --> 00:24:55,840
there smarter than them and they gotta

669
00:25:00,960 --> 00:24:58,539
just maybe go back to high school and

670
00:25:02,310 --> 00:25:00,970
sit with the kids or or go to Khan

671
00:25:04,470 --> 00:25:02,320
Academy where you don't have to

672
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:04,480
embarrass yourself by relearning Causton

673
00:25:08,759 --> 00:25:07,330
yeah yeah I think perhaps if if you if

674
00:25:11,970 --> 00:25:08,769
people are actually getting into these

675
00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:11,980
conspiracy theories then yeah there's

676
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:14,289
kind of a reason for them to do the work

677
00:25:17,549 --> 00:25:16,210
it really should be you know the things

678
00:25:19,950 --> 00:25:17,559
behind these things you know the

679
00:25:21,629 --> 00:25:19,960
everyday people if they don't want to do

680
00:25:23,159 --> 00:25:21,639
it then there's really you know there's

681
00:25:25,379 --> 00:25:23,169
no harm I think in not doing science

682
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:25,389
yeah I kind of feel bad saying that

683
00:25:29,399 --> 00:25:27,130
though because I would really like

684
00:25:31,799 --> 00:25:29,409
everybody to learn science but

685
00:25:33,690 --> 00:25:31,809
realistically they're not going to yeah

686
00:25:36,509 --> 00:25:33,700
I mean there's simple science out there

687
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:36,519
I mean not like I guess like you can

688
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:38,320
measure the drop of acceleration for

689
00:25:41,909 --> 00:25:40,210
example you can drop of things that is

690
00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:41,919
actually tough I did this because I was

691
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:43,990
like gravity came up in the Flat Earth

692
00:25:47,399 --> 00:25:45,730
community so it's like okay I'm gonna

693
00:25:49,049 --> 00:25:47,409
measure gravity now so I just like

694
00:25:50,430 --> 00:25:49,059
dropped an object I just had a tape

695
00:25:53,570 --> 00:25:50,440
measure next to it that I could like

696
00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:53,580
plot displacement versus time

697
00:25:57,330 --> 00:25:55,600
extrapolate the acceleration that

698
00:25:59,610 --> 00:25:57,340
particle went through be a measuring and

699
00:26:01,350 --> 00:25:59,620
gravity essentially yeah but even that's

700
00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:01,360
really tough it's like what's the

701
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:02,769
simplest science experiment out there I

702
00:26:05,610 --> 00:26:04,330
think we'll probably learn figuring out

703
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:05,620
the earth and not fly was probably the

704
00:26:10,409 --> 00:26:07,360
simplest experiment out there just go to

705
00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:10,419
the beach and see if the ocean was going

706
00:26:16,250 --> 00:26:13,990
to be called for yeah so you said

707
00:26:20,370 --> 00:26:16,260
something interesting and in with your

708
00:26:23,190 --> 00:26:20,380
messages that you spent time on the

709
00:26:26,970 --> 00:26:23,200
discord server like a chatroom this is

710
00:26:28,620 --> 00:26:26,980
like a boys chat room yeah there's all

711
00:26:31,919 --> 00:26:28,630
these sort of underground flat earth

712
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:31,929
chat rooms where people try to climb the

713
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:34,170
Flat Earth pecking order

714
00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:37,050
so describe it the plethora of pecking

715
00:26:40,490 --> 00:26:38,940
order how do they how do they do that

716
00:26:41,060 --> 00:26:40,500
how do you progress in this pecking

717
00:26:43,550 --> 00:26:41,070
order

718
00:26:45,830 --> 00:26:43,560
so like that I remember this there was a

719
00:26:47,810 --> 00:26:45,840
hilarious episode of Bob's Burgers were

720
00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:47,820
like the turkeys just took over the town

721
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:50,400
and like then there's this character who

722
00:26:53,870 --> 00:26:52,290
has this amazing voice on Bob's Burgers

723
00:26:55,340 --> 00:26:53,880
knees like either the turkeys got a

724
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:55,350
pecking orders like they know that one

725
00:26:59,360 --> 00:26:57,210
can this disguise can affect that guy

726
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:59,370
and so then everything is stable cuz I

727
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:00,960
know who can know Peck who and then the

728
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:02,310
then there's the guy at the top who can

729
00:27:07,910 --> 00:27:04,890
Peck anybody and then this level and in

730
00:27:10,460 --> 00:27:07,920
the so then to take the town but since

731
00:27:12,170 --> 00:27:10,470
the detecting order was destroyed and it

732
00:27:13,910 --> 00:27:12,180
was just complete anarchy right turkeys

733
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:13,920
just pecking people in order for a

734
00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:17,520
second so in order to take back to town

735
00:27:22,190 --> 00:27:20,430
I think Bob's wife she just started Peck

736
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:22,200
and Bob right because he was a big kind

737
00:27:25,970 --> 00:27:24,450
of guy right the turkeys were afraid of

738
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:25,980
him a little bit because it was big but

739
00:27:30,380 --> 00:27:28,530
they could Peck him but then when they

740
00:27:32,030 --> 00:27:30,390
saw his wife attacking him right like

741
00:27:34,130 --> 00:27:32,040
then there and then she started pecking

742
00:27:36,410 --> 00:27:34,140
around all the turkeys got scared of his

743
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:36,420
wife I figured his wife's name but yeah

744
00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:38,130
that was an order the same this is a

745
00:27:42,530 --> 00:27:40,080
pecking order was restoring it

746
00:27:43,970 --> 00:27:42,540
that's what a pecking order is now in

747
00:27:46,220 --> 00:27:43,980
flat earth I think what's going on is

748
00:27:48,620 --> 00:27:46,230
like can you embarrass someone by not

749
00:27:50,780 --> 00:27:48,630
knowing something right like if hmm like

750
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:50,790
like you can throw out a question of

751
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:52,650
some like what what is density and if

752
00:27:55,790 --> 00:27:53,850
like if they can't answer in a couple

753
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:55,800
seconds like what is density me was not

754
00:28:00,530 --> 00:27:57,690
gonna answer it that's all it mass per

755
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:00,540
volume yeah so I would survive that Peck

756
00:28:04,790 --> 00:28:03,330
that gets like oh this I oh I would

757
00:28:06,170 --> 00:28:04,800
climb the pecking order a little bit

758
00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:06,180
because I knew that definition but then

759
00:28:08,330 --> 00:28:07,740
there's people at the top like mark

760
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:08,340
sergeant

761
00:28:16,490 --> 00:28:14,130
I know tech any flat or three so all

762
00:28:18,980 --> 00:28:16,500
these flutter chat rooms and then really

763
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:18,990
like lots of different ones I have how

764
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:20,880
would you kind of characterize the scale

765
00:28:27,950 --> 00:28:26,490
of this this society its underground so

766
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:27,960
you don't we don't know about this it's

767
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:30,090
all underground that it's the darkness

768
00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:32,880
the information whatever I guess do it

769
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:35,100
again that did they were there I was in

770
00:28:39,650 --> 00:28:37,050
a few but I don't know how many there

771
00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:39,660
are at this and they won't they they're

772
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:41,460
hidden very well like that you can't

773
00:28:45,770 --> 00:28:42,930
just get into them right there's like

774
00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:45,780
the 24/7 discord and then there's like

775
00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:46,720
the

776
00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:52,240
god a snow lady in this lake but like

777
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:53,860
you get banned from them really quickly

778
00:28:59,910 --> 00:28:56,770
if you if they think you might be a but

779
00:29:02,130 --> 00:28:59,920
affect them so but it sounds like it's

780
00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:02,140
the same names coming up you know based

781
00:29:05,610 --> 00:29:04,270
on these the numbers of people that are

782
00:29:08,340 --> 00:29:05,620
actually in these things there's a

783
00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:08,350
pretty small phenomenon hopefully yeah

784
00:29:12,990 --> 00:29:11,350
yeah but yes it's just like when you do

785
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:13,000
surveys you get two percent of the

786
00:29:17,490 --> 00:29:14,290
American public think that the earth

787
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:17,500
might be might be flat which is what is

788
00:29:20,730 --> 00:29:19,090
that like you know five million people

789
00:29:23,310 --> 00:29:20,740
or something like that six million

790
00:29:24,930 --> 00:29:23,320
people which probably isn't correct it

791
00:29:27,050 --> 00:29:24,940
fragra just annoys people just randomly

792
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:27,060
shake checking things on these surveys

793
00:29:29,910 --> 00:29:28,720
sure yeah

794
00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:29,920
there's a significant number of people

795
00:29:35,460 --> 00:29:33,100
who who lie on the surveys but yeah it's

796
00:29:36,570 --> 00:29:35,470
it's not that many people and I think

797
00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:36,580
this is something that people need to

798
00:29:40,830 --> 00:29:38,830
understand that about a lot of

799
00:29:42,390 --> 00:29:40,840
conspiracy theories is that they usually

800
00:29:46,260 --> 00:29:42,400
aren't that many people who really

801
00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:46,270
believe it and really are into it even

802
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:48,190
with some of the more widespread ones

803
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:50,730
like 9/11 you maybe get like a whole

804
00:29:56,550 --> 00:29:53,650
mess of people who say oh yeah maybe

805
00:29:59,460 --> 00:29:56,560
9/11 was an inside job yeah maybe that's

806
00:30:01,590 --> 00:29:59,470
like yeah a significant percentage of

807
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:01,600
people who believe that but the actual

808
00:30:06,450 --> 00:30:03,250
number of people actually involved in

809
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:06,460
9/11 truth it's really quite small and

810
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:09,130
you know much lower with Flat Earth as

811
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:12,370
well did you ever get into looking into

812
00:30:18,570 --> 00:30:15,360
things like 9/11 conspiracy theories I

813
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:18,580
haven't actually I saw it in zeitgeist

814
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:20,410
and then that kinda just didn't know

815
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:22,330
like I kind of maybe throughout my life

816
00:30:25,890 --> 00:30:24,250
I just maybe maybe it was an inside job

817
00:30:28,260 --> 00:30:25,900
maybe it's not but if I were to bet

818
00:30:30,450 --> 00:30:28,270
money on it I would bet probably

819
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:30,460
thousand dollars right now on spot that

820
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:34,090
it was not and inside do you avoid

821
00:30:37,890 --> 00:30:36,010
looking at conspiracy theory especially

822
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:37,900
worried that you might get sucked into

823
00:30:42,330 --> 00:30:39,610
them because of your your openness for

824
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:42,340
these ideas oh no I'm not afraid of any

825
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:43,450
idea at all

826
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:45,970
but the reason I'm not looking InDesign

827
00:30:50,220 --> 00:30:48,130
eleven things because if I ever do I'm

828
00:30:52,140 --> 00:30:50,230
purposely remaining ignorant on it so

829
00:30:54,810 --> 00:30:52,150
that I can sort of go into a rabbit hole

830
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:54,820
with someone else and then I can grab a

831
00:30:59,220 --> 00:30:56,890
hold of them and then when I land on my

832
00:31:00,040 --> 00:30:59,230
trampoline not come up with them maybe

833
00:31:04,060 --> 00:31:00,050
yeah

834
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:04,070
an interesting thing okay so you talk

835
00:31:12,340 --> 00:31:07,970
about math a lot and you you've taken

836
00:31:13,990 --> 00:31:12,350
like graduate courses in math and yeah

837
00:31:17,290 --> 00:31:14,000
which is I mean maybe you didn't finish

838
00:31:19,090 --> 00:31:17,300
all of your courses but it's vastly more

839
00:31:23,140 --> 00:31:19,100
advanced than the average person like

840
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:23,150
yeah I I did I think some undergraduate

841
00:31:26,590 --> 00:31:24,710
courses in math as my first year of

842
00:31:28,210 --> 00:31:26,600
computer science and they just hurt my

843
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:28,220
head so much I just could not wrap my

844
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:31,010
head around there's advanced calculus

845
00:31:38,110 --> 00:31:33,650
stuff that they were doing back then so

846
00:31:40,750 --> 00:31:38,120
I didn't take math after that what is it

847
00:31:43,090 --> 00:31:40,760
about math that kind of immunizes you

848
00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:43,100
against conspiracy theories all provides

849
00:31:46,810 --> 00:31:44,390
you with this trampoline is there

850
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:46,820
something specific about math first it's

851
00:31:52,660 --> 00:31:50,320
a physics well I guess it's just like

852
00:31:53,950 --> 00:31:52,670
when we talk about beliefs that get you

853
00:31:56,140 --> 00:31:53,960
through the day and like some people

854
00:31:58,300 --> 00:31:56,150
believe they're a good person they

855
00:32:00,910 --> 00:31:58,310
believe that they're going to work doing

856
00:32:02,410 --> 00:32:00,920
something useful for me a beliefs that

857
00:32:06,550 --> 00:32:02,420
get me through the day or you puts five

858
00:32:08,590 --> 00:32:06,560
postulates so like if you have a point

859
00:32:10,810 --> 00:32:08,600
you can draw a straight line between any

860
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:10,820
of those two points I mean that gets me

861
00:32:15,340 --> 00:32:13,910
through thick yeah and you you said that

862
00:32:17,860 --> 00:32:15,350
other people should learn Euclid's

863
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:17,870
postulates as well yeah there's like

864
00:32:22,660 --> 00:32:19,760
it's I have the book Euclid's elements

865
00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:22,670
the most important book maybe maybe the

866
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:24,880
most important book of humanity I mean

867
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:27,530
it's up there it's next to the Bible

868
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:29,570
it's next to the Quran it's next to the

869
00:32:35,650 --> 00:32:34,010
Torah yeah it was the man's Bible but I

870
00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:35,660
think it like a gay if you have to read

871
00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:37,190
it to the average person it's like what

872
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:40,640
but it is possible is even mean yeah

873
00:32:44,170 --> 00:32:42,110
the easiest way to get into Euclid's

874
00:32:47,230 --> 00:32:44,180
elements is distresses apt called

875
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:47,240
Euclidean it's just like an app on your

876
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:48,890
smartphone and then like you can just

877
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:51,530
like prove with a bunch of theorems on

878
00:32:56,050 --> 00:32:53,690
it and just instead of like proving a

879
00:32:58,150 --> 00:32:56,060
theorem sounds like daunting but no this

880
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:58,160
is levels it's basically all this is

881
00:33:03,370 --> 00:32:59,600
like levels of the game and you prove

882
00:33:05,410 --> 00:33:03,380
various theorems so I was one actually I

883
00:33:07,090 --> 00:33:05,420
actually sounds kind of cool yeah and

884
00:33:08,650 --> 00:33:07,100
giving you successful though to someone

885
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:08,660
who doesn't have a background in math at

886
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:11,120
all no Lydia is definitely accessible to

887
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:13,610
anyone who understands what a circle and

888
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:15,650
line it's mm-hmm yeah I was fascinated

889
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:17,690
with geometry when I was young I was

890
00:33:23,590 --> 00:33:21,050
trying to do things like trisect the

891
00:33:25,780 --> 00:33:23,600
angle yeah apparently that's impossible

892
00:33:27,100 --> 00:33:25,790
yeah it's a famous impossible problem in

893
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:27,110
which I think for a long time they

894
00:33:30,010 --> 00:33:29,210
didn't know was impossible and I didn't

895
00:33:31,710 --> 00:33:30,020
believe them when this idea was

896
00:33:35,050 --> 00:33:31,720
impossible is the idea that you can

897
00:33:37,420 --> 00:33:35,060
divide an angle exactly into three using

898
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:37,430
only a compass and a straight edge and a

899
00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:40,880
pencil like this so you wanna talk about

900
00:33:46,510 --> 00:33:44,230
your your landlady story yes I do

901
00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:46,520
hilarious take the tickets back to the

902
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:47,990
start of that story there what actually

903
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:50,090
what actually happened okay so what

904
00:33:53,230 --> 00:33:51,650
happened was this was a horrible living

905
00:33:55,330 --> 00:33:53,240
conditions like I would not want wish

906
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:55,340
this upon anyone I would not wish like

907
00:33:59,860 --> 00:33:58,130
like it was like basically an atheist a

908
00:34:01,270 --> 00:33:59,870
Hindu and a Christian all lived in the

909
00:34:03,340 --> 00:34:01,280
same house for three months it's like

910
00:34:05,230 --> 00:34:03,350
the start of a joke we had a Hindu got

911
00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:05,240
along with her just fine he was a cool

912
00:34:08,350 --> 00:34:07,910
guy and what's going on with him never

913
00:34:09,490 --> 00:34:08,360
again

914
00:34:12,100 --> 00:34:09,500
well actually when you talk about

915
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:12,110
chemtrails I mean I'm remembering the

916
00:34:15,310 --> 00:34:13,370
related story but when you talk about

917
00:34:17,590 --> 00:34:15,320
chemtrails like clouds being made of ice

918
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:17,600
crystals remember the cloud that I went

919
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:19,520
through was like pricks on my face so as

920
00:34:22,930 --> 00:34:21,110
I was going through it so clouds they're

921
00:34:24,370 --> 00:34:22,940
made of ice crystals or whatever yes

922
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:24,380
that's true

923
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:25,970
that one probably wasn't there because

924
00:34:31,030 --> 00:34:28,130
he'd be too low to air for it to be ice

925
00:34:33,130 --> 00:34:31,040
crystals oh so it's probably just you if

926
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:33,140
you were going to so fast when you were

927
00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:35,450
falling through it thirty uh what would

928
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:36,800
you parachute open at that point now you

929
00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:38,210
wouldn't do that until we were at

930
00:34:43,090 --> 00:34:40,399
Terminal one yeah so that was probably

931
00:34:46,630 --> 00:34:43,100
just the water droplets clouds Dominion

932
00:34:48,010 --> 00:34:46,640
level of made of water above that level

933
00:34:50,830 --> 00:34:48,020
when the temperature gets cold enough

934
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:50,840
they're either water or ice and then a

935
00:34:54,970 --> 00:34:53,690
certain level they're always ice anyway

936
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:54,980
we're getting off topic you have an

937
00:35:04,600 --> 00:34:57,890
interesting landlady story yes I love

938
00:35:06,130 --> 00:35:04,610
tangents what yeah so but yeah if she

939
00:35:09,010 --> 00:35:06,140
had all these rules in her house it was

940
00:35:10,780 --> 00:35:09,020
like and she was a bit of a not she was

941
00:35:12,970 --> 00:35:10,790
a bit of conspiracy person herself but

942
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:12,980
she had this role was like in order to

943
00:35:16,210 --> 00:35:13,970
save power

944
00:35:19,090 --> 00:35:16,220
she had the unplugged she demanded all

945
00:35:19,630 --> 00:35:19,100
her residents unplug the toaster to save

946
00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:19,640
power

947
00:35:25,530 --> 00:35:21,470
now me being an electrical engineer

948
00:35:29,530 --> 00:35:25,540
- immediately knew that was false like

949
00:35:30,849 --> 00:35:29,540
immediately like Hawaii I had my like I

950
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:30,859
had my knowledge I have my belief that

951
00:35:35,230 --> 00:35:32,810
knew that was wrong so I actually just

952
00:35:36,849 --> 00:35:35,240
forgot I left it plugged in all the time

953
00:35:38,109 --> 00:35:36,859
and she would flick out at me all the

954
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:38,119
time from leaving the plugged in and

955
00:35:40,570 --> 00:35:39,050
wastin her power

956
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:40,580
I told people at work like the

957
00:35:43,359 --> 00:35:42,320
electrical engineers that worked it's

958
00:35:45,070 --> 00:35:43,369
like the seniors there and they're like

959
00:35:46,510 --> 00:35:45,080
laughs when they're like oh yeah maybe

960
00:35:48,220 --> 00:35:46,520
there's capacitance between the two

961
00:35:49,930 --> 00:35:48,230
wires there's a little bit of you know

962
00:35:54,250 --> 00:35:49,940
if you maybe tens in it maybe a couple

963
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:54,260
tempo sense of current power or they're

964
00:35:58,660 --> 00:35:55,730
like just laughing at how ridiculous

965
00:36:00,910 --> 00:35:58,670
this flame was so then but it wasn't

966
00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:00,920
funny for me because I was here and I

967
00:36:05,470 --> 00:36:03,310
was anxious like this woman was like I

968
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:05,480
startled easily and she would be yelling

969
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:08,090
at me causing anxiety causing to the

970
00:36:12,070 --> 00:36:09,770
point where I would be at work before I

971
00:36:14,290 --> 00:36:12,080
am someone's trying to avoid her so I

972
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:14,300
was like enough of this it'll be all

973
00:36:17,290 --> 00:36:16,010
because of the toaster yeah well because

974
00:36:18,730 --> 00:36:17,300
of the tall I wouldn't unplug the

975
00:36:20,650 --> 00:36:18,740
toaster and she would yell at me and it

976
00:36:22,420 --> 00:36:20,660
just blew up right so I hide from her

977
00:36:25,839 --> 00:36:22,430
and worked for four until 4:00 a.m. they

978
00:36:27,190 --> 00:36:25,849
must have thought I was crazy but but I

979
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:27,200
did get my work done on this - main

980
00:36:33,430 --> 00:36:31,520
thing yeah so I did what you said in

981
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:33,440
like in escaping the rabbit hole you've

982
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:36,410
described like spotlight and floodlight

983
00:36:40,599 --> 00:36:38,510
so this was laser light spotlight

984
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:40,609
debunking was he had what this I was

985
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:42,320
gonna show her that there was no current

986
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:44,210
flowing through the toaster so I put

987
00:36:47,109 --> 00:36:45,680
that in line with the toaster and I

988
00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:47,119
measured the current that the toaster

989
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:49,609
was when it was plugged in and switched

990
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:51,410
engaged and when it was plugged in

991
00:36:56,829 --> 00:36:53,330
switch unengaged my shoulder that the

992
00:36:59,050 --> 00:36:56,839
current draw was zero basically and then

993
00:37:00,670 --> 00:36:59,060
she said many times she tried so I'm

994
00:37:02,589 --> 00:37:00,680
gonna get out here my electrician now

995
00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:02,599
I'm gonna he'll show me you're wrong and

996
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:05,089
I said move bring him in it was the

997
00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:07,130
voltmeter here's the resistor here's the

998
00:37:10,570 --> 00:37:09,140
toaster tell him to calculate the power

999
00:37:12,070 --> 00:37:10,580
draw this thing when the switch is off

1000
00:37:14,109 --> 00:37:12,080
people tell you exactly what I've told

1001
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:14,119
you and then I said this to her so many

1002
00:37:19,570 --> 00:37:16,250
times that she actually broke down in

1003
00:37:22,270 --> 00:37:19,580
tears when she realized that she was

1004
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:22,280
wrong about this like and it was an

1005
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:24,800
emotional thing I was hoping this would

1006
00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:26,210
be funny but because there is humor in

1007
00:37:30,270 --> 00:37:27,710
it but it's an emotional thing this

1008
00:37:34,100 --> 00:37:30,280
relates what it turned into being so

1009
00:37:37,370 --> 00:37:34,110
yeah yeah and that's interesting because

1010
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:37,380
yeah it's not a huge belief really it's

1011
00:37:41,140 --> 00:37:38,970
just was just wrong about this one thing

1012
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:41,150
yeah but what that was that was

1013
00:37:46,460 --> 00:37:44,010
fundamental to her belief about like the

1014
00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:46,470
smart meters being a conspiracy against

1015
00:37:50,540 --> 00:37:48,720
the utility company being having a

1016
00:37:52,580 --> 00:37:50,550
conspiracy against her dxtory

1017
00:37:54,110 --> 00:37:52,590
right I got her to show me your

1018
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:54,120
electrical bill and it actually wasn't

1019
00:37:59,060 --> 00:37:56,160
that high I was she believed the

1020
00:38:00,500 --> 00:37:59,070
government was against her I didn't

1021
00:38:03,110 --> 00:38:00,510
really listen to her when she started

1022
00:38:05,090 --> 00:38:03,120
going on about that stuff applause well

1023
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:05,100
showing her that she was wrong about the

1024
00:38:10,570 --> 00:38:07,200
toaster it just like toppled the

1025
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:10,580
dominoes that she had her world humans

1026
00:38:16,190 --> 00:38:13,200
so did she change her mind about other

1027
00:38:18,860 --> 00:38:16,200
things then after that like about smart

1028
00:38:20,930 --> 00:38:18,870
meters I actually don't know what

1029
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:20,940
because she was a bit naughty and I

1030
00:38:26,660 --> 00:38:24,480
didn't act over that much man but she

1031
00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:26,670
seemed happier when I finally left like

1032
00:38:30,740 --> 00:38:28,950
when she left she gave me like she asked

1033
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:30,750
like Brad give me a hug correct when I

1034
00:38:36,740 --> 00:38:32,970
left because I guess and she thought

1035
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:36,750
like that my her and my crossing pads

1036
00:38:42,290 --> 00:38:38,850
was some sort of spiritual thing for her

1037
00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:42,300
she was very Christian lady really

1038
00:38:45,770 --> 00:38:43,920
believed in Jesus like like we brought

1039
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:45,780
her screwdriver once and she thought the

1040
00:38:48,770 --> 00:38:47,130
hand of Jesus had brought her the

1041
00:38:51,380 --> 00:38:48,780
screwdriver through me and the Indian

1042
00:38:53,660 --> 00:38:51,390
guy this kind of way she viewed the

1043
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:53,670
world but she died I was like yeah I'll

1044
00:38:58,130 --> 00:38:55,290
give you a hug I mean I hope you do well

1045
00:39:01,010 --> 00:38:58,140
my hope she's doing well yeah definitely

1046
00:39:03,350 --> 00:39:01,020
but I think a lot of people have these

1047
00:39:05,570 --> 00:39:03,360
these moments where one cherished belief

1048
00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:05,580
gets knocked down and then it starts

1049
00:39:09,020 --> 00:39:07,710
starts them on the road out of the

1050
00:39:12,410 --> 00:39:09,030
rabbit hole so there's two different

1051
00:39:15,590 --> 00:39:12,420
things it's like with you you bounced

1052
00:39:17,090 --> 00:39:15,600
out straight away that you can have you

1053
00:39:18,820 --> 00:39:17,100
know played with a rabbit hole a bit but

1054
00:39:21,980 --> 00:39:18,830
then disco but it was it was nonsense

1055
00:39:24,950 --> 00:39:21,990
there's a guy in my book in the book

1056
00:39:26,810 --> 00:39:24,960
like he basically he heard about 9/11

1057
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:26,820
the first time and he thought oh my god

1058
00:39:30,350 --> 00:39:28,650
yeah the government did 9/11 that's

1059
00:39:32,450 --> 00:39:30,360
inside job and he was like into it for

1060
00:39:34,370 --> 00:39:32,460
like nearly a week I think and then his

1061
00:39:36,020 --> 00:39:34,380
brother told him like things like you

1062
00:39:37,370 --> 00:39:36,030
know well gravity brings things straight

1063
00:39:38,530 --> 00:39:37,380
down so that's why they fell down in a

1064
00:39:41,290 --> 00:39:38,540
straight line and he was

1065
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:41,300
yeah and I think yeah that's you know

1066
00:39:44,830 --> 00:39:43,280
similar to you you you've kind of

1067
00:39:47,110 --> 00:39:44,840
flirted with the idea for a bit and

1068
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:47,120
examined it and then discovered it was

1069
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:49,520
it was false but a lot of people list so

1070
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:52,250
they'd get get down the rabbit hole and

1071
00:39:58,180 --> 00:39:54,170
they explore everything down there and

1072
00:40:00,010 --> 00:39:58,190
then they have one thing that comes

1073
00:40:01,930 --> 00:40:00,020
through and say this is wrong what else

1074
00:40:03,850 --> 00:40:01,940
might be wrong and I wonder if it could

1075
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:03,860
be as something as simple as you know

1076
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:06,410
the toaster does not draw power when

1077
00:40:10,930 --> 00:40:08,810
it's plugged in oh yeah

1078
00:40:13,410 --> 00:40:10,940
when it's often plugged in yeah yeah

1079
00:40:16,090 --> 00:40:13,420
yeah it's when it's plugged in and off

1080
00:40:17,530 --> 00:40:16,100
and you know it had not belief from her

1081
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:17,540
point of view isn't entirely

1082
00:40:23,020 --> 00:40:20,210
unreasonable because you get John yet

1083
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:23,030
you get told about parasitic power the

1084
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:25,490
things like TV and you know amplifiers

1085
00:40:29,830 --> 00:40:27,770
and things if your TV switched in

1086
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:29,840
plugged in and switched off a lot of the

1087
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:32,720
time it's drawing power and the funny

1088
00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:35,200
thing was she left her TV plugged in

1089
00:40:40,780 --> 00:40:38,270
which would have been about a million

1090
00:40:41,770 --> 00:40:40,790
engine switch power being wasted as yeah

1091
00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:41,780
this toaster

1092
00:40:48,070 --> 00:40:45,710
yeah so I guess that's uh it's a good

1093
00:40:52,570 --> 00:40:48,080
lesson in the if you can convince

1094
00:40:54,490 --> 00:40:52,580
somebody about a deeply held belief it

1095
00:40:56,110 --> 00:40:54,500
doesn't have to be the one that's like

1096
00:40:57,700 --> 00:40:56,120
some big conspiracy theory I mean it was

1097
00:40:58,930 --> 00:40:57,710
just a mistake essentially on her part

1098
00:41:00,730 --> 00:40:58,940
I'm sure it was related to these other

1099
00:41:04,690 --> 00:41:00,740
things but it's something that's on the

1100
00:41:06,970 --> 00:41:04,700
line between her reasonable beliefs and

1101
00:41:08,590 --> 00:41:06,980
her unreasonable beliefs but it was

1102
00:41:11,650 --> 00:41:08,600
something that was solidly in the camp

1103
00:41:15,580 --> 00:41:11,660
of her her beliefs what she thought were

1104
00:41:17,140 --> 00:41:15,590
reasonable but we're actually not yeah I

1105
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:17,150
want you to talk a bit more about the

1106
00:41:23,140 --> 00:41:20,090
these chat rooms so I'm very interested

1107
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:23,150
in the idea of like yeah it's not really

1108
00:41:28,210 --> 00:41:25,490
the dark web the discord servers they're

1109
00:41:30,820 --> 00:41:28,220
just private discord servers that you're

1110
00:41:32,590 --> 00:41:30,830
on you know actually interest

1111
00:41:36,370 --> 00:41:32,600
communities yeah you're not going play

1112
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:36,380
at all browsers how does it how does it

1113
00:41:40,930 --> 00:41:38,210
differ from like the the stuff that

1114
00:41:42,490 --> 00:41:40,940
shows up on YouTube I mean you sure we

1115
00:41:44,770 --> 00:41:42,500
get them chatting with each other and

1116
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:44,780
they're the public chats is there a

1117
00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:46,490
difference between that what

1118
00:41:51,259 --> 00:41:49,040
flat-earthers doing private versus what

1119
00:41:53,959 --> 00:41:51,269
they do in public the difference is

1120
00:41:56,149 --> 00:41:53,969
in private so like in public we whatever

1121
00:41:57,769 --> 00:41:56,159
you say is broadcast and she's in stone

1122
00:41:58,969 --> 00:41:57,779
is etched into the internet so you're

1123
00:42:00,859 --> 00:41:58,979
going to be careful about what you say

1124
00:42:03,679 --> 00:42:00,869
but when you're on the discourse or you

1125
00:42:05,569 --> 00:42:03,689
can just joke around and be a little let

1126
00:42:07,370 --> 00:42:05,579
your guard down kind of thing and I was

1127
00:42:09,439 --> 00:42:07,380
actually accused of that like because I

1128
00:42:10,909 --> 00:42:09,449
was talking with some slider it was like

1129
00:42:13,459 --> 00:42:10,919
some guy write the hand whoever I

1130
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:13,469
remember name some details but I was

1131
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:14,729
talking with him when we're having jokes

1132
00:42:17,929 --> 00:42:16,079
and they were like oh they thought I was

1133
00:42:19,959 --> 00:42:17,939
a pretty cool guy for a globe er and

1134
00:42:23,870 --> 00:42:19,969
then as soon as we went on the public

1135
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:23,880
talk I started well I'm not going to

1136
00:42:30,309 --> 00:42:27,839
joke about earth being flat anymore or

1137
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:30,319
like not gonna make any sort of

1138
00:42:34,249 --> 00:42:32,640
misconstrue myself as a fighter because

1139
00:42:37,370 --> 00:42:34,259
the earth is round I'm a very educated

1140
00:42:40,279 --> 00:42:37,380
person and I want to get that across to

1141
00:42:41,839 --> 00:42:40,289
people so I want that to be my public

1142
00:42:43,219 --> 00:42:41,849
English I don't want my public image to

1143
00:42:45,380 --> 00:42:43,229
be that I was a fighter for fruit day

1144
00:42:46,549 --> 00:42:45,390
that's just a joke right the public

1145
00:42:48,589 --> 00:42:46,559
image is you gotta strike for your

1146
00:42:50,959 --> 00:42:48,599
public image so I had to do that and

1147
00:42:53,259 --> 00:42:50,969
they got really angry at me because I

1148
00:42:58,189 --> 00:42:53,269
started being write about stuff

1149
00:43:00,859 --> 00:42:58,199
essentially do you think a lot of what

1150
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:00,869
they do is just kind of like for social

1151
00:43:04,909 --> 00:43:02,249
reasons like they're just having fun

1152
00:43:06,979 --> 00:43:04,919
hanging out and they just see what I

1153
00:43:08,749 --> 00:43:06,989
think it is I mean it is fun just

1154
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:08,759
chatting with and I've actually chatted

1155
00:43:11,929 --> 00:43:10,079
with the flutter this for a while and

1156
00:43:13,729 --> 00:43:11,939
it's you know there are a lot of them

1157
00:43:14,989 --> 00:43:13,739
fairly nice people a few of them are not

1158
00:43:17,209 --> 00:43:14,999
but you know there's a lot of nice

1159
00:43:18,889 --> 00:43:17,219
people there it's fun to chat and it's

1160
00:43:21,319 --> 00:43:18,899
almost like they keep doing it what I'm

1161
00:43:23,539 --> 00:43:21,329
thinking about these these private rooms

1162
00:43:24,979 --> 00:43:23,549
these these underground meetings just

1163
00:43:27,620 --> 00:43:24,989
like they're having a little party in

1164
00:43:30,549 --> 00:43:27,630
there yes I guess so yeah I wouldn't

1165
00:43:34,459 --> 00:43:30,559
know because I'm generally not pointed

1166
00:43:36,079 --> 00:43:34,469
all right so just finish up like suppose

1167
00:43:38,539 --> 00:43:36,089
there was someone in the same situation

1168
00:43:40,579 --> 00:43:38,549
as you back when you were interested in

1169
00:43:44,689 --> 00:43:40,589
this type of thing and maybe they don't

1170
00:43:46,819 --> 00:43:44,699
have your background in mathematics what

1171
00:43:49,789 --> 00:43:46,829
advice would you give to someone who's

1172
00:43:53,379 --> 00:43:49,799
starting to look into flat earth and

1173
00:43:56,629 --> 00:43:53,389
gives it as giving it some credulity um

1174
00:44:00,319 --> 00:43:56,639
I don't know because I'm afraid anything

1175
00:44:02,420 --> 00:44:00,329
I say is going to be backfire effect so

1176
00:44:05,299 --> 00:44:02,430
maybe I would say nothing

1177
00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:05,309
just look at them I just listen to what

1178
00:44:10,460 --> 00:44:07,440
they said maybe that's it that's all I

1179
00:44:12,849 --> 00:44:10,470
might do so I say my ears are open

1180
00:44:15,380 --> 00:44:12,859
that's all maybe that's all I would say

1181
00:44:18,980 --> 00:44:15,390
but if I had to say something I would

1182
00:44:23,319 --> 00:44:18,990
say geometry etymology the word geometry

1183
00:44:26,510 --> 00:44:23,329
means geo means earth mentally means

1184
00:44:29,539 --> 00:44:26,520
measurement geometry means measurements

1185
00:44:32,359 --> 00:44:29,549
of the earth Euclid was not a flat

1186
00:44:34,210 --> 00:44:32,369
earther cuz he lived in Greece ancient

1187
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:34,220
Greece where they measured the

1188
00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:36,210
circumference of the earth and he would

1189
00:44:41,420 --> 00:44:38,940
have been in these academic circles they

1190
00:44:43,220 --> 00:44:41,430
would say that's all fake yeah there was

1191
00:44:44,510 --> 00:44:43,230
one guy teach egg I mentioned that too

1192
00:44:46,339 --> 00:44:44,520
when he said like oh well Euclid

1193
00:44:47,210 --> 00:44:46,349
probably didn't exist and you can't know

1194
00:44:50,359 --> 00:44:47,220
what you're talking about with this

1195
00:44:52,910 --> 00:44:50,369
stuff like yeah so let's think they got

1196
00:44:55,339 --> 00:44:52,920
other questions that they need answers

1197
00:44:57,069 --> 00:44:55,349
to so what so really you got to see what

1198
00:44:58,910 --> 00:44:57,079
questions they have in their mind

1199
00:45:00,319 --> 00:44:58,920
there's like some stuff they'll just

1200
00:45:02,269 --> 00:45:00,329
accept right away look I remember I told

1201
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:02,279
PJ is like you just asked me really

1202
00:45:05,359 --> 00:45:03,690
quickly one of these hangouts it's like

1203
00:45:07,460 --> 00:45:05,369
if you go up a hell does the irrigate

1204
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:07,470
less dense and I said yes and he's like

1205
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:08,970
so he took that immediately you would

1206
00:45:12,289 --> 00:45:10,890
accept that with a question yeah so the

1207
00:45:14,779 --> 00:45:12,299
simple observations like that that

1208
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:14,789
anyone can make that I think you point

1209
00:45:19,190 --> 00:45:16,770
out to people oh yeah I think I would

1210
00:45:21,529 --> 00:45:19,200
give up give them the your example of

1211
00:45:22,579 --> 00:45:21,539
looking at an eye on this distance and

1212
00:45:25,220 --> 00:45:22,589
looking at it from different heights

1213
00:45:27,890 --> 00:45:25,230
it's a great great experiment people can

1214
00:45:30,049 --> 00:45:27,900
do to demonstrate that the something is

1215
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:30,059
obscuring that wasn't of the island it's

1216
00:45:33,950 --> 00:45:31,770
a great experiment if your lines is open

1217
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:33,960
yeah but the flat earthers I cuz I'm

1218
00:45:37,339 --> 00:45:35,490
always thinking about I still haven't

1219
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:37,349
figured it out why are people believing

1220
00:45:41,359 --> 00:45:39,450
this and I think maybe it's just they

1221
00:45:43,069 --> 00:45:41,369
have certain questions so complied

1222
00:45:44,420 --> 00:45:43,079
earthers articulate your questions and

1223
00:45:46,339 --> 00:45:44,430
answer them yourself articulate your

1224
00:45:48,079 --> 00:45:46,349
question you have questions articulate

1225
00:45:50,059 --> 00:45:48,089
them the best you can for yourself so

1226
00:45:52,450 --> 00:45:50,069
that you can see figure out exactly what

1227
00:45:54,170 --> 00:45:52,460
answers you need yeah I think

1228
00:45:57,529 --> 00:45:54,180
understanding what the question actually

1229
00:45:59,029 --> 00:45:57,539
is is yeah because is it good start

1230
00:46:02,000 --> 00:45:59,039
because other people they they don't

1231
00:46:04,250 --> 00:46:02,010
they don't really have good questions

1232
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:04,260
guys that they're confused they don't

1233
00:46:07,309 --> 00:46:05,609
know what they want to know they don't

1234
00:46:09,890 --> 00:46:07,319
know what they don't they're confused

1235
00:46:11,569 --> 00:46:09,900
and we don't know what they don't know

1236
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:11,579
either so if we could start to have were

1237
00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:13,680
confused

1238
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:18,510
flat-earthers like how what is going on

1239
00:46:23,060 --> 00:46:20,700
in your head where you can't say that

1240
00:46:26,510 --> 00:46:23,070
this is being obscured anyway that's all

1241
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:26,520
a bit off topic but well is there

1242
00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:28,370
anything else you'd let's talk about

1243
00:46:33,470 --> 00:46:32,250
yeah I was saying to my friends I was

1244
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:33,480
like man I was excited that I was going

1245
00:46:36,410 --> 00:46:35,250
to talk to you because I don't know if

1246
00:46:38,930 --> 00:46:36,420
you know something said that group but

1247
00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:38,940
the Tony Hawk underground game and I

1248
00:46:45,010 --> 00:46:41,580
think you were involved with this yes I

1249
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:45,020
understand it was the technical director

1250
00:46:50,690 --> 00:46:48,810
Tony yes or me no and I'm flabbergasted

1251
00:46:56,030 --> 00:46:50,700
to be in the presence of your right now

1252
00:46:57,260 --> 00:46:56,040
for that yeah I think I found that game

1253
00:47:00,080 --> 00:46:57,270
programming is actually being quite

1254
00:47:01,370 --> 00:47:00,090
useful in terms of debunking because

1255
00:47:03,170 --> 00:47:01,380
there's a lot of things that went into

1256
00:47:06,410 --> 00:47:03,180
making games like the Tony Hawk games

1257
00:47:09,110 --> 00:47:06,420
where the the things you have to think

1258
00:47:10,780 --> 00:47:09,120
about are similar to what you have to

1259
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:10,790
think about in debunking these

1260
00:47:15,140 --> 00:47:13,050
conspiracy theories or investigating

1261
00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:15,150
these videos and things so if someone

1262
00:47:19,370 --> 00:47:17,760
shows you a picture of you know

1263
00:47:21,610 --> 00:47:19,380
something that's either visible or not

1264
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:21,620
visible and you can work out in 3d

1265
00:47:25,610 --> 00:47:23,850
what's going on

1266
00:47:28,130 --> 00:47:25,620
which University people can't but then

1267
00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:28,140
you can do that and then you can figure

1268
00:47:32,090 --> 00:47:29,730
out a way of explaining it to people so

1269
00:47:34,790 --> 00:47:32,100
it's quite handy being a computer games

1270
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:34,800
programmer I people kind of mock you it

1271
00:47:39,410 --> 00:47:37,290
wasn't mock me they say yeah it's just a

1272
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:39,420
video game programmer it actually is one

1273
00:47:43,010 --> 00:47:40,890
of the best things that you could be if

1274
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:43,020
you want to be interested in kind of

1275
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:46,890
mutually debunking things all right Brad

1276
00:47:50,810 --> 00:47:49,110
well I like to thank you very much for

1277
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:50,820
being being a guest it's been a very

1278
00:47:54,050 --> 00:47:52,170
interesting conversation

1279
00:47:56,660 --> 00:47:54,060
yeah thanks makers it's been a pleasure

1280
00:47:58,340 --> 00:47:56,670
to be on the podcast um I was looking

1281
00:48:00,860 --> 00:47:58,350
forward to this for weeks